Does anyone change the hooks on the Winni Wonders from a single to a treble hook and what size do you use. Also, does anyone bump up the treble hook size on the DB Smelts to the size on the TopGuns?

I don't have any Winni Wonders myself, but I might be able to shed a little light on your questions.

The single hooks many use with the thought it might be easier on the fish. However, one noted biologist told me a while back the book isn't complete on that theory yet as far as hook wounding. I'm not 100% certain what was meant by that except that all hooks can cause "hook wounding". I am only repeating what I was told, it does seem to make sense that 1 hook point will do less harm than 3 hook points. It also makes sense that 3 hook points will catch more fish than 1 hook point. Then again, 1 hook point is easier to remove and does not get caught in the net quite so much.

But seeing that we are trying to do more "catching" than "fishing", myself I choosed the treble hooks.

As far as DB's and other spoons, I think most come with the proper size (#6 or 8) these people know what they are doing. And I might add I have never seen a DB or Top Gun with single hook.

I bought a bunch of spoons once (not localy) and asked for #8 hooks, after missing many bites, I switched to #6's, no more missed bites, well not as many, lol. I looked at the hooks I was using (#8's) and the hook points were narrower than the spoon width, but the #6's did protrude slightly outside the spoon width. So I use this as a guage now when changing hooks.

The weight of the hook or the drag can effect the action of the spoons somewhat too, so I guess the smallest hook possible, that would be effective, should be selected if you're going to change hooks. I've played with this a little once and agree with this thinking... Bigger hooks than intended do stop the spoon action considerably.

I'm no way an authority (but feel somewhat like one writing this) I'm only talking from my own experiences. Perhaps some more knowlegable folks might give a reply.

John S.

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Does anyone change the hooks on the Winni Wonders from a single to a treble hook and what size do you use. Also, does anyone bump up the treble hook size on the DB Smelts to the size on the TopGuns?

I agree with what John said about sizes and wounding of fish...
The trebles seem to lock their mouths shut sometimes and require surgery to remove a hook... but on the other hand singles have a wider gap and have been known to pierce the roof of the mouth on some smaller fish. Tradeoffs to both styles.
That said, I normally leave the hook style that came with the lure on the lure. I have always had good luck with the single hooks on both the winni wonders and needlefish. Never saw much of a difference between hookup ratio on those or the lures with trebles.
Changing the hooks will definitely affect any lures action. So, if you do change the hooks, be sure to test run the lure beside the boat to make sure it still has the correct action. You don't want it spinning out of control nor do you want it motionless.

When I was in Florida this year, I took a few spoons with me to try, DB's and Guide Specials. Not sure why or how much bigger, but I did put a bigger hook on a DB, it pulled through the water like a needle, no action at all. (I didn't catch anything that day no matter what hooks I used)

So I'm gald Craig agrees with me on that, the guys that make the spoons we use locally, for the most part are fishmerman and use the right size hooks for what they sell.

The single/treble controversy will probably never be answered 100% so I guess it's a matter of personal preference.

John S.

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I agree with what John said about sizes and wounding of fish...
The trebles seem to lock their mouths shut sometimes and require surgery to remove a hook... but on the other hand singles have a wider gap and have been known to pierce the roof of the mouth on some smaller fish. Tradeoffs to both styles.
That said, I normally leave the hook style that came with the lure on the lure. I have always had good luck with the single hooks on both the winni wonders and needlefish. Never saw much of a difference between hookup ratio on those or the lures with trebles.
Changing the hooks will definitely affect any lures action. So, if you do change the hooks, be sure to test run the lure beside the boat to make sure it still has the correct action. You don't want it spinning out of control nor do you want it motionless.

I actually asked Craig this exact question a few weeks ago when we were out fishing on Winnisquam. He told me he just leaves the hook that comes with the lures on and they worked fine, so I am taking his advice. I know the Savants and the Needlefish all come with the single hook, but all my others seem to have the treble. Doesnt hurt to expirement, just dnt spend your whole day doing it :-)

-Scott

the big hooks on the winni wonder work well, i dont change them. with the other lures i change to a single open eye hook when the old treble is ruined simply because they are easier to attach. from what i remember big single hooks hurt the little salmon more than the little trebles. i dont like the rounded hooks where the point curves toward the hook shank that db was selling last year, i always bend them outward when im not hooking fish. i would like to find a single hook source in the standard bronze, all i ever find with the open eye are the chromed ones.

Not sure these are in the size you want, but check out this link...

http://www.captainhookswarehouse.com/index.cfm?page=detail&hookid=359&view=1

thanks, thats exactly what i want

Happy to help. Thanks for responding to my spring spread question. I was starting to wonder if I asked for everyones honey hole locations by the lack of response to that thread. ;-)

First you need to purchase some of these. They do catch fish. Just ask Adrien. We will have new colors are AJ's booth that we will be taking orders for them. Savant uses a siwash # 2 hook. If you change to a treble I would change it to a 8. 10 is too small. You might be able to use a size 6 but it may through off the action. Even extra paint can change the action of a lure.

Hey guys!

Act of God!! I just sent story to N.H. Hawkeye magazine.
Don Miller and John Viar, big lakes biologist and stewards of Lake Winni are really concerned about the increasing amount of "hook damage" and its affect on salmon length and weight!! Don was brave enough to recommend single, barbless hooks if we are serious about reducing hook damage and increasing average salmon growth.
I asked YoAdrien and he says he finds no hookup difference with single or treble. I have always liked
single siwash hooks and AJ tells me that he recommends #4s and carries them at the store in Meredith. I will experiment with them on my DBs in May. The BIG question is how different size single hooks effect the action of our small Winni salmon spoons??

Dick

I was fishing sea run Atlantic salmon in Newbrunswick. This was a fly fishing trip but I brought a secret weapon. My DB smelt. Just below this particular bridge it was open fishing. I dragged the DB around on my fly rod and absolutly murdered the salmon. The guide asked , "in fair play reduce the trebble to a single hook" I did for 3 or 4 LDR's and then went back to my trebble and never dropped another fish. Also the bite rate slowed conciderably which made me believe the action of the lure had changed due to the single hook. I go out fishing to CATCH FISH. The state sytem is in place to give us a fishery to go out and do that. If it became manditory single hook, or barbless !I'm all over it. In my opinion more hooks is more boated fish!

The biologist look at the Salmon as their babies and in many ways they are.

But the mouths on those little guys are so soft it's very hard not to damage them some, no matter how carefull you are. It's not the hook type so much maybe that causes the hook wounding as much but the removal. We found that you have to hold the jaw itself(support it) wiuth 2 fingers, then with the other hand carefuly remove the hook, takes 2 people sometimes. Worst thing is after you take the needed time to do it right, sometimes the poor little guy goes belly up when you release it.

The bigger fish seem to be OK and if you hook wound one you could allways keep it, but the little guys have to go back in.

Most years in Squam we hardly catch the little guys at all, maybe 2 or 3 a season. But 2 years ago we couldn't get away from them for a month or so, then they disappeard until Fall ?? But there were plenty to be caught the following year, fat and sassy. Fish and Game recomends leaving the area if you get allot of little guys biting.

Last year the Salmon were very small (about 5", maybe less) when put in and we hardly caught or saw any til late in the season, maybe they were so small they were on a bug diet ?? If there are still plenty in there from 2008 stocking, they wont be hardly any hook wounded, that might be the way to go.

John S.

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I was fishing sea run Atlantic salmon in Newbrunswick. This was a fly fishing trip but I brought a secret weapon. My DB smelt. Just below this particular bridge it was open fishing. I dragged the DB around on my fly rod and absolutly murdered the salmon. The guide asked , "in fair play reduce the trebble to a single hook" I did for 3 or 4 LDR's and then went back to my trebble and never dropped another fish. Also the bite rate slowed conciderably which made me believe the action of the lure had changed due to the single hook. I go out fishing to CATCH FISH. The state sytem is in place to give us a fishery to go out and do that. If it became manditory single hook, or barbless !I'm all over it. In my opinion more hooks is more boated fish!

John,

Don Miller told me that the hook damage at Squam is much less than at Winni. Maybe its because you guys at Squam are so kind to your salmon.

Fish"N"247 Be it treble spoons on a Canadian river or looking for the biggest share of Winni salmon I hope you will take some time to appreciate the long term good of such a super fishery as you found in Canada or here at Lake Winni. I wish you good fishing but I hope you will appreciate the fish you catch.

John, keep doing your good stuff at Squam.

Dick

We try to be kind, but let's face it, we have allot less fishing pressure on Squam than Winni. All summer when everyone was catching tons of yearlings on Winni, we only caught 1 and 2 more in the Fall.

I'm pretty sure the Squam stocking was on average 3 to 5 inches and maybe 6" to 8" on Winni. Squam gets the stocking earlier than Winni normally, due to the Derby, Winni stocking is later (after the Derby)

It will be interesting this year to see what the 2 year olds look like and how the 2 year old bite is..

John S.

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John,

Don Miller told me that the hook damage at Squam is much less than at Winni. Maybe its because you guys at Squam are so kind to your salmon.

Fish"N"247 Be it treble spoons on a Canadian river or looking for the biggest share of Winni salmon I hope you will take some time to appreciate the long term good of such a super fishery as you found in Canada or here at Lake Winni. I wish you good fishing but I hope you will appreciate the fish you catch.

John, keep doing your good stuff at Squam.

Dick

No one appreciates a good fishery any more than I do. Many years of catch and release with flattened barbs, moving off a hot spots filled with fresh stocked fish only to watch while the game hogs take their limit and more after I moved on.
On our boat we practice great stewartship. Rubber net,strong leaders, the sharpest Eagle claw hooks, all the best hardware to ensure the fish we boat get to the boat and are handled and released with our future fishing and great outings in mind.
I just finished 42 different variety's of lures 4 of each style with #8 eagle claw trebble hooks just for winni. I heavily concedered single hooks for at least a few BUT..... one evening I was viewing pics from this past summer and my 11 yr old was pulling the hooks from the 21" rainbow my 7yr old just boated and the stories were flying!! If that fish had slipped off a single hook lure that awsome moment would be "the one that got away". There was also my little friend Katherine 6 who never ever fished in her entire life boated a 22" massive salmon, biggest on our boat all year, as we glanced at the pictures our favorite lure had a trebble hook. We will allways take good care and thanks for the well wish.

In years past I switched all of my lures over to single hooks instead of trebles. What I found was that single hooks did more damage in some cases. The young Salmon fresh stalked age 1 class would get the big single hook in deep and it would hook them either through the eye or the head-nostril area this would cause serious injury or death for the age 1 class Salmon. The single hooks seemed to work good for larger fish as the hook size to the head size ratio is closer to allow the hook to set in the mouth not the head or eye! I still found however significant damage with the single hook as I found the hook set to be deeper and harder to release with out damage. Not sure what the answer is I also do not want to see the high number of hook wounded Salmon!

previous post was me Travis not my Dad.. ooops

Hello,

The problem with single hooks vs the treble argument is that we are comparing apples to oranges. If you look at the actual hook in a size 6 or 8 treble, the actual size is that of a size 8 single hook, and the siwash's typically used are much bigger size 4 and above. To compare damage, I believe we need to look at size 6 and 8 siwash and obviously noone want to fish with such a small single hook. But let's say this was the comparison, then I would beleive that the treble would do more damage as it has 3 points although the hook up will be more depending on the angle the fish take the lure at (3 points vs 1). But with such a bigger single hook, it will damage like a size 2 or size 4 treble. When a hook penetrates, it slides to the hook bend. This distance it travels will rip and gauge causing damage. So on a smaller fish, it could mean real trouble. A size 6 or 8 siwash has the same travel as a size 8 or size 6 treble so that damage is equivalent.

For this reason, our new 1.5 inch trolling spoons targeted for trout in ponds and small lakes has a size 8 or size 6 single hook as most of the fish will be less than 15 inches. But the 2.0 inch spoon will stay with a size 8 treble as I don't lose salmon on it and I don't want to start.

The fear I have is a thread like this get viewed and searched by PETA on the internet and will start to petition for either a shorter season or eliminating C&R of salmon. Perhaps its best to close out on this type of discussion soon as their basis is if us fisherman are so concerned on not harming the fish, we can do something more about it.... I can see them now...ugghh!!!

Chappy.

Do what we do when fishing for stripers...take your pliers and flatten the barb...still keeps the fish on but much easier when it comes time to release the fish

All good points by caring sportsman, (PETAS biggest fear). Is there an actual barbless hook, and if so is it better than pinching the barb with pliers? A few years ago, all I heard about was circle hooks, safer for fish and better hook-ups. Is there a circle hook that could possibly work on our smaller salmon spoons? or are the mouths of salmonoids just too soft? Not that we needed more questions, Thanks, Phil

I've tried small circle hook but they just don't have enough gap to get into the jaw of a good size fish.

I think John Viar and Don Miller would be proud of you fishermen for giving so much consideration to the problem.

Now, what if we keep the hook damage problem on our minds for the entire season and I'll bring the problem up next fall. It would give us a lot to talk about while we wait for the ice to form.

Dick

I think that it is as important as the hooks for the release of our fish as to how we release them.
Many times, I'm also guilty of this, we just flip the net over, and we see the salmon go belly up. If we took a minute or two to revive they when putting in the water, this would also save some fish for later.

(When they go belly up when released does anyone know if they revive by themselves????)

Louis

Good question Lou, as you know many times with me we see one (keeper size) belly up. We turn around and try to get to him and just about 100% of the time they within a short time they come around and are gone.

I too wonder if these make it or not, I don't think I've ever had one still belly up after we turn the boat around, lol. Seems like they wait til we make a move and they go back down.

When you comin back, these new riggers are sweet, should be the b--- on Squam, I might have to sell all my spare rigger balls, lol. I can't wait..

Let me know when you are back and we'll get you out on Winni while we have it docked there.

John S.

I was told by a reliable F&G person that the single hook is easily inhaled and wounds the fish more than a treble.