Thanks For the Post Adrian, If anyone can put it into layman's terms so the rest of us can understand it It's def. You!!!!!!!!! I tryed explaining it but not on my "Best" day could i even come close to explaining information like you do. Awesome Response and Very Well Said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the words speak for themselves!!!!!!!!! Take Care God Bless LOL Dave From up North

maybe you should remember the old saying if it aint broke do not fix it. F&G has been working a long time to get the fishery this good and has done a great job, so why dont we leave it to the experts. thats what they get paid for.
there is not any tipe of fishing that someone is not going to be happy with that they want to have changed but then again thats why we have F&G rules.
basicly if we did not have rules we would not have anything to fish and hunt for

I guess the state of the salmon fishery in Winni (excellent) does give the F&G people credibility.

Now, compare the state of the salmon fishery in Moosehead (fair to poor by winni standards), for a lake that is almost twice the size, is cooler on average and has much less fishing pressure per unit area of lake. You can harvest salmon through the ice on Moosehead. With Adrien's post my guess is the ice fishing pressure has a lot to do with the reduced quality of the salmon fishery on Moosehead.

I believe that moosehead's condition comes from the lack of food or in particular the lack of great smelt numbers. Add to that an almost out of control lake trout population. Anywhere with a 5 lake trout limit and a 14" min. has a LOT of lakers.

I was catching lakers there 2 years ago trolling in 68 degree water 10 feet down in mid july at over 3 mph. I was trying to make them stop biting but they wouldn't. They were all 18" or less nothing big. Way too many of them to let the salmon get going, especially if they re going to hang out with the salmon up top.

They have been trying very hard for a long time to get moosehead going with salmon, every couple years they get some good progress then it disappears, very frustrating for them i'm sure.

They have some very specific salmon rules on Moosehead in the winter like only open 30 days mid winter and 1 18" fish only. i think no fishing within 500 ft from shore too. Word is they want people to go in the winter and HAMMER Lakers.

Also as a matter of perspective Champlain has an insane amount of smelt and a good amount of salmon and you are allowed 15 TIP-UPS EACH in the winter. Maybe the salmon population is a little off right now but that has everything to do with lamprey problems the last few years, being corrected now, and soon back on track. Back a few years ago they were catching a few 10 pound salmon there each year. And 5 pounders were not that amazing. A 5 pounder at the LCI a few years ago wouldn't even come near the top 20.

Yup your right on. I fish out of Rockwood on occasion. The problem Moosehead has is to many small lake trout. My friend who lives there tells me that there are alot less ice fisherman than in years past. Ice fishing is needed to cut down the lake trout population. Less lake trout means more smelt and then more salmon.

YoAdrien - I think you're absolutely right about both the lakers (too many) and the forage base (too little). I also don't think their F&G has either the resources or even interest NH F&G has in Winni. The ME F&G are all about fly fishing. I had called asking about a private groups efforts at stocking fluorescent-tagged smelt in Lily Bay. I had one of the senior guys poo poo this groups efforts and try and tell me that salmon don't feed on smelt in the summer (!!). (Perhaps they CAN'T feed on smelt in the summer because their are NONE).

I try and do my part and get my limit of 5 lakers every trip out. Last two summers on Moosehead all the fish have been real skinny, almost nothing in their gut, particularly the few salmon I kept. Then I see your pics of those footballs from Winni... Its all about balance and NH F&G has got it right on Winni. I can only dream of that on Moosehead.

Let me start by saying this is a great site and feel this is the reason for this site, so all can express our thoughts and beliefs. by doing this, it gives us all information about fishing which is what I hope this site is all about.

Now YOAdrien, Let me preface that you by all that I read and have heard are about one of the best there is out there on the Winni site, which I give you all the respect in the world. Then there's me, who probably couldn't catch a fish at the hatchery (my problem not yours). Now in your last post I sensed a little sarcasm to which I took offence to so please in a good way let me throw some back to you, keeping in mind I hold no grudges and hope you don't either, if so let me apoligize in advance.

First of all F&G allow only two tip-ups not 6-10 lines. If you are fishing through the ice and catching salmon like your fishing in a barrel,then you are the one fishing in the hatchery not me.

Second on bringing the people from Mass, you better thank the people that come from not just mass but from other states as well,because if it weren't for the revenue they (me being one of them)bring into this state, the state would belly up as far as F&G goes. They should take some of the monies and stock more lakes, you can't tell me that, since the salmon can't reproduce any way,They can't stock them in other lakes,ther are ponds and lakes they can live in, and as far as feed goes I think that salmon eat perch as well as other species,not just smelt.

And thirdly the one I take extreme exception to.
If you think that the ice fisherman are as inconciderate as to treat not just salmon but any type of fish like the way you stated and I'll let you and the readers go back and read it rather than type it again, then, I feel that you think you are better than the rest of us. you may be a great fisherman, and know an awful lot about fishing, and don't get me wrong I personally do listen to you and DO learn from you (and I thank you for what I have learned from you and hope you will keep giving advice) but you are not any better than the rest of us. and by no means are the rest of us stupid. as far as the row boat absalutly uncalled for, because there are some people who can't afford the luxury of the boats we have, and can't afford the lauch fee. you know fishing shouldn't be a rich man sport, but they are making it that way. you said something about no fishing 500 feet from shore How are todays kids going to catch fish? and why do you use eight -sixteen lines? Since you are so good, why not just use one or two better yet why not use just the worm and bobber.

good fishing
Forry
P.S. watch how many jump to defend you. LOL

I think you are missing the point?

Nothing i said was sarcastic at all, it is all serious.

If someone really needs a boat i will lend it, that is not a joke.

YOUR QUOTE
"""First of all F&G allow only two tip-ups not 6-10 lines."""
They only allow 2 in the summer as well. If a group of 3-5 goes ice fishing or a group of 3-5 goes in a boat they are using 6-10 lines either way be it tip ups or poles.

I don't know where you get that people from Mass are a bad thing? It makes no difference what state people are from. The point is that there is a large population base within 2 hours of Winni that undoubtably contain scores of fisherman that would be excited to hear about salmon fishing through the ice in winni and would make it a priority to go. The stampede would be enormous and fishing would be fantastic for a year or 2 and then go down the tubes. Then the uninformed ones would all complain about it.

Salmon eat tons of white perch and smelt in winni I never said they didn't, we all know they do. If they didn't AJ's White Perch flies wouldn't work so good. (Insert sales pitch here!)

I won't even respond to comments like "just stock salmon in more lakes" you should do a little research, call fish and game and ask them to just start stocking salmon all over the place they will get a good laugh. Salmon are not Perch and Bass they are a very delicate fish that relies on a very balanced delicate ecosystem.

500ft from shore is a law that was on the books on Moosehead lake, maybe still is, i havn't ice fished there in years. It is to protect trout and salmon from extreme pressure during the ice fishing season. It has nothing to do with me or my opinions or fishing on lake Winni at all?

As far as access for children. I am enetring into a project at this moment to work with the boy scouts in my town for an ice-fishing day this winter and i plan to offer a free spot on every one of my charters next season for a child from the local boy scouts or girl scouts. Fishing is something to be shared, and that includes sportsmanship and respect. I troll with the amount of lines that are allowed by law. When on a charter my job is to give the clients the most enjoyable time i can give them. I will do all i can to put them on the fish and let them experiance the thrill of a salmon pulling on their line. I will not take hundreads of dollars from somebody and halfass a trip. They will get their moneys worth with me I wouldn't have it any other way. If they are allowed to fish with 8 poles they will fish with 8 poles if they want less we will fish with less.

Nothing has anything to do with being better than anybody else it has to do with making sure important information is distributed. It's about experience and things i have personally seen over and over again. I talk to biologists, i volunteer my time to fish and game, and they convey concerns and facts about the fishery to me. Often times about how they wish people would be more careful with released fish. I took a lot of time to learn how to treat fish gently and make sure they survive once released and make it a great concern of mine to be certain that every released fish survives to be caught again. I never claimed everybody treats fish poorly many people treat them with all the care they possibly can give them and respect the fish. Others don't know enough to know they are hurting the fish. Like the old saying ("you don't know enough to know you don't know") I have seen people on winni fishing near me catch a salmon, pull it through the hole, firmly grab the line and shake and yank until the hook rips out. The fish falls in the snow, flops a bit, leaves a nice blood trail, and they kick it back in the hole. THAT IS DISGUSTING and IT DOES HAPPEN the fish is dead because they didn't want to lose a 15 cent hook. Again nothing about saving them for me in the summer but is a waste of a resource for no reason.

If things i am writing offend anyone i'm sorry.

This board and the gatherings are responsible for a lot of education about the fish and the fishery. It reaches thousands of people and maybe opens some eyes to the big picture. How many boats did you see on winni with rubber nets for salmon 5 years ago? I'll answer that for you almost ZERO. NOW how many boats do you see on winni without a rubber net on board it is heading towards zero. And that is a great acomplishment. It is a benefit across the board.

The amount of fish being caught in winni and many other lakes in the northeast is going up and up because of this board and the information being shared. If all this info is helping people catch more there should be just as much info on how to conserve more. It is a two way street. I have worked my fingers to the bone to learn to catch as many fish as i can on any particular trip because that is what i enjoy but i have also put in just as much time learning how to conserve the resource. It is all info to be shared. Nobody has to listen to anything i have to say if they don't want to but if i bring something to light to even 1 beginner and save the lives of 3 released fish next season it is all worth it.

Not getting into the middle of this one. However, as to Moosehead and Winni fisheries being different, they are. But it seems more a matter of stocking feed rather then stocking fry. As to ice fishing killing Moosehead, in the 15 out of 20 years I have ice fished Moosehead, I can only recall 2 or 3 Salmon being taken with the increased length limit. As to most recently, must be close to five years now they changed the salmon ice fishing on Moosehead to catch and keep only after Feb 15th. Many more lakers then salmon, only a few brookies. They changed the Rangeleys to no ice fishing at all many years ago, and they have better fish then Moosehead, but Winni is far better then anything I have fished as of yet. So they are doing something right. And I love it!9SSC

And I have also been told that Salmon are more vulnerable to freezing then other fish. Might be an old wives tale, haven't googled it.

first off as ice fisherman we don't take our two lines and or even our ten if five of us are fishing and troll them all over the lake, if the fish are not there, well we might move once. so I don't see why you say our two-ten lines are the same as your lines of equal count. You where the one that mentioned the people from Mass first.I personally think for what we spend on the license more Quality fish and more places to fish for these fish could and should be provided. As far as salmon eating tons of white perch and smelt, I thought I read on this very site that the rainbows are fish that eat 24/7 and the salmon fade during the mid-day. if that is the case why can't they replace the rainbows with salmon? I also would like to know how many of the dead salmon they find in the spring and blame on the ice angler are really the work of the soft water angler? I also would like to ask if there was a 1 salmon limit on ice fishing, don't you think that when and if the angler caught a legal lenght (what ever the state set) salmon and was allowed to take it home that he would stop fishing (because I don't think they would stick around in the cold playing catch and release, they'd take their salmon and go home at which time the pressure is off the rest of the salmon?

as far as the stampede of ice fisherman I think that if you are an angler of the ice you are already on the lakes anyway, sure you may get a few more people fish winni but I don't think it would be as many as you think (i could be wrong?????)

you said that salmon are not perch and bass saying nothing about rainbows are they in that category or in with the salmon if they are in with the salmon(i don't know this answer) why can't they have a put and take of salmon in other lakes as they do the rainbow?

I do want to commend you on the boy scout deal, great job!!

Also on the rubber net!!

good fishing
Forry

Forry,

i do not think you can assume that ice fisherman would stop fishing after taking one salmon because it is cold and they would not hang around playing catch and release, think of all the checking, measuring and handling of short salmon that would take place trying to get that one keeper. anyhow most of us fishermen whether winter or summer fishing are catch and release fishing.

just my .02

ilucas

We do catch and release,However and I am going to assume that if given a chance at taking just one salmon through the ice that we as fisherman would be greatful enough and would not target salmon for catch and release.It would not be beneficial for us to do that. Think about it for a minute. there is nothing in the laws today that prohibits the ice angler from catching salmon now, if we wanted to fish for salmon we can catch all we want we just can't bring throuh the ice. that would be catch and release. that would hurt the salmon I argee, but (I can't speak for everybody else but I can tell you, I don't practice that now and wouldn't if they let us take a salmon either)I don't think my fellow ice angler would do that either. We fish to enjoy the out of doors, not to destroy it. and if they changed the law to permit the ice angler to take a salmon through the ice, that doesn't mean the people that don't agree with it have to go for thesalmon they could just continue fishing the way the do now.But we shouldn't prohibit a person from keeping a salmon for table fare, or a trophy fish if they happen to get lucky enough to have one take his bait just because it is caught on a tip-up. that would not be fair, would it???? let me end by saying I am not trying to Trash or call out anyone out, if anyone thinks that I'm sorry that is not my intention at all. I am just having conversations with my fellow fisherman and hope my friends, I truly hope no one takes offence, if we all agreed with everything what would we have to talk about. It is a long way until April 1 good fishing

Forry

I'm not getting into this either, but just let me say one thing, from all the people on this wonderful board and they know who they are!!!!!!!! Have helped me and my regular fishing partner catch more fish (even though for some unknown reason we can't seem to do it on WinniUGHHHHHhh "someday I'll figure that lake out UGHHHHHHH) I waited 2 years to be physically able to go out with Adrien, on the day i went out with him there were 5 guys on the boat and my daughter, (this was also the day i lost the donkey off of my name Wooo Hoooo) but that's not the story, the story is how much fun my kid had, everybody on the boat (even though they didn't have to) kept giving my daughter Amber the pole whenever a fish was caught, by the end of the day her arm was sore as could be, but she had the time of her life and still asks me when she can come on Adrien's boat again, (this just shows what kind of a guy Adrien is). He also did the same thing this fall when he took me and my Dad out fishing, My dad had never been on Winni (besides the Mt. Wash) fishing, even though it wasn't a "Awesome" day my Dad caught his first Salmon and was thrilled to death, show's off his piture like it was a 20lber LOL I have learned so much from this site and people like Adrien that its unreal, me and Rob have gone from many "Completely SKUNKED" days to only having 3 skunks all season last year, 2 of those being Winni LOL Hopefully someday i will be able to figure this gosh darn lake out UGHHHHHHHHHh I have made many, what i hope are Lifelong Friendships from this site and for that itself i will be forever "Grateful" Take Care God Bless and Hurry up 4/1/07 LOL Dave From up North

I'm not getting into this either. I respect the guys who share their secret here and learn alot from them. I do however support "get rid of the rainbows and put more salmon in Winni" Rainbows don't fight anything like a salmon. They smash the lure, make a couple leaps and crap out. The look pretty but I'll take salmon over a bow anyday!

Its not as simple as replacing 'bows with salmon. They are different. Adrien or someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought (from AJ?) that the 'bows were more or less stocked in Winni mostly as a target for ice fishing.

Adrien is dead right that salmon are more fragile and vulnerable to ice fishing pressure. Given the state of the Winni salmon fishery (excellent) and deferring to Adrien's knowledge (extensive) over my own (limited), I hereby publically rebuke myself and retract my own dumb idea of a one-fish limit on salmon through the ice. I would now say if ain't broke don't fix it. Enjoy fishing for 'bows, lakers and perch in the winter and enjoy salmon fishing during the open water season. Be grateful you have such an amazing fishery near you. (I'm 5 hours away). Its all about sustaining a great fishery, not simply getting more of what you want when you want it.

Would I like to ice fish for salmon if it were sustainable? Yes. (I've tried it down here and there are none left it seems...) I think Adrien is right that there would be a brief time ice fishing was good before the whole year-round salmon fishery declined. Adrien makes a lot of good points about the salmon fishery out of his knowledge and experience not out of spite towards ice anglers. Practically every suggestion he has made here on the board that I have adopted (rubber nets, fish handling, how to improve presentations etc.) have all worked...so Adrien's credibility is golden with me and it is reason enough to reconsider my own dumb idea. I have heard from several other sources (including F&G people in several northern states) that an open ice-fishing season for salmon can all but kill a salmon fishery. Down here in NY ice fishing is blamed for having killed or really diminished the salmon fishing in Schroon Lake and several of the major NYC reservoirs.

As far as ice fishing on Winni goes, our time and effort might be better spent to encourage F&G to stock more yearling (or larger) 'bows in the fall specifically for ice fisherman. I've heard this being done at a number of lakes without negative impacts to the salmon fishery. Rainbows are a great fish in their own right.

To me whats been good about this thread is I now have a better appreciation for how fragile a salmon fishery is and how little things (and big things) make a huge difference in the health of a salmon fishery.

I am not talking about ADRIEN I respect him and his thoughts as well as anyone on this site. I have been talking about Ice fishing for salmon, and why they can't replace the rainbows for salmon and let us ice fish for them. As Adrien stated in one of his replies and I quote"They know more than me and 99% of all of us, they do the studies they live and die with the condition of the fishery and i trust them".he was talking about the F&G dept. I would like to hear the reasons from the F&G why that couldn't be done. I deffinatlely do not know the answers that is the reason for these posts. Are they saying rainbows are more dificult to catch than salmon are? (anglers catch an awful lot of rainbows thru the ice by just using salmon eggs.) Don't rainbows eat more food than the salmon?(hurting the food source more than more salmon would? can't they replace rainbows for salmon in other lakes and if not why?
These are questions that have not been answered and all I would like is answers without people thinking that I am bashing Ardien, because that is not what I am doing. Please stop defending him because their is no need to defend him. I am not at war with him and hope he is not at odds with me either.
good fishing
Forry

I think i said it in an earlier post, Come to the Gathering John Viar is usually there and gives us a great presentation, He would be more then willing to answer your question and explain why it would more then likely be detrimental to the Salmon fisheries if we were to let people Ice fish for them. He is very good at telling it how it is and when it comes to salmon he def. know's his S__t if you know what i mean. Take Care God Bless and Hurry up 4/1/07 LOL Dave From up North

Forry, couple of things...

If you want to know from Fish and Game why they do what they do... try emailing them your questions at this address fish@wildlife.state.nh.us I have found that they are very helpful in their responses. It may take a few days, but they DO answer questions. This address goes direct to "Inland Fisheries".

Second... you mentioned how you feel you should get access to more fish and more locations for your license fee. Myself, I think we're getting a heck of a good deal on our licenses. For an hours pay, I get the privelege of fishing/catching for a whole year. If I went to the grocery store and bought the fish I catch in state waters, I'd be paying WAY more per pound.
Understandably, that is before figuring in the tons of money I spent on my boat and gear. BUT, that was my choice. I didn't have to have a big boat or 30 rods of all colors and sizes. I could catch a bunch of fish (as I have in the past) without trolling the big lake. I don't even know how many pounds of brook trout and rainbows I've eaten over the years, just by tossing a worm on ultralight gear into a brook. Almost all those fish were stocked. It cost the state lots of money to raise, truck and stock those fish. Thirty bucks out of my pocket is no biggie for that kind of action... at least in my mind.
When I first learned to fish from my grandfather it was in a 12' aluminum v-hull... no motor... but we always trolled. We just used oars. My brother and I would have to take turns rowing the boat as my grandfather told us where to go. We'd throw out a weighted keel with small Dave Davies spinners on a 6 1/2' ugly stick rod and mitchell spinning reel followed by a night crawler on a size 6 single hook. Never had a problem catching fish. It was CHEAP and it was FUN.
So, when you say trolling for salmon is a "rich man's" sport... its only because we individually make it that way. It IS possible to catch salmon all spring/summer with no motor... no fish finder... no down riggers... I know, because I've done it. And in all honesty some of my greatest memories come from those days.

As far as ice fishing for salmon... I personally have never caught one through the ice. However, from stories I've heard... there's a few techniques to target them that are quite effective. Too effective even. So yes, I believe ice fishing for salmon could be detrimental.

First of all great thread.
We all don't need to agree 100% of the time it is important to hear eveyone's view.
I agree that the salmon are vunerable to the ice fishing pressure and where I differ a bit is that I don't like that so many people and in part due to the derby target rainbows. I feel the tatics to catch the bows is similar to that of salmon and has the largest impact on the number caught. As you can tell by the name on my post I target white perch and there are some good fish out there and make great table fare. This is time of year I keep a few for the table as we catch and release all others. I hooked into only one salmon thru the ice last year and that was while letting my bait down to the bottom and a salmon hit it on way down. (we fish a couple feet off bottom).
On the other hand fishing during the derby when alot of guys are trying for the big prize that is brought by catching a rainbow I have seen many more salmon hooked.
So as unpopular as it may be I would like to not have people chasing bows on salmon lakes thru the ice.
For the fun of it , we should all track how many salmon we hook this winter and what tatic we were using when it occurs...ie just under ice, depth of bait and fish you were targeting.
Willing to share some of our white perch hot spots for those wanting to give it try....lots of fun and great action when you take the kids!
Just my opinion.

Very good point Still Fishin. I do not ice fish but with similar tactics for Bows and Salmon you can see how the salmon get caught. Then factor in the uneducated group that is out there for the derby just for the party and drop a couple tilts in for fun not knowing or caring what they are doing.....

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it is illegal to take a salmon out of the hole. I think the recommend it only.

I've read all these posts. I have a few comments. I have ice fished for over 25 years and have fished the ice derby just about every year since it started. Sometimes we would have 20 tip-ups.One time only, we caught 8 or 10 salmon in one day. I find it hard to believe anyone could get 20+ salmon in a day.On the other hand, I have either been alone or with one other guy and have had many days during ice out where we caught 10-15 fish. I wouldn't have put my two cents in about this but I'm not basing my info on a few trips.
As far as the bows go, their primary diet are insects. They eat smelt, but not like the salmon. Mr Viar told me they put them in to take the pressure off the lakers.There are a ton more lakers around since 1990. Is this because of the bow stocking? Maybe. Probably a combination of Viar's efforts with the smelt population surveys and the fact that people can sit on shore and fish for the bows instead of freezing their butts off venturing out to laker territory.
Leave everything the way it is. The lake is is top form from what I can see. The bows are fat, the salmon are very healthy and you're not getting racer lakers like you do in other lakes.There is one thing that I would like to change. I see no valid reason for not being able to ice fish a laker/salmon lake before the 1st of January. I go up xmas vacation and I can't set a couple of tip-ups? I think it's ridiculous. Many people are off that week and you can usually get out onto a few inches of ice in some of the coves.I spend money every time I'm up there. I would spend more if I could fish.I would like to see how everyone feels about this.Last year I was on a mission to get the 2-trap limit changed. After all the responses it made me re-think my reasoning and I backed off.
I am going to try and move forward on this, but would like to hear any valid reasoning for not opening the season to perhaps Dec 26 through March 31. Please comment. Thanks in advance. One more thing. I ran into a warden last week and asked him of this situation. He said, and I quote, "I think it's ridiculous that you can't ice fish before the 1st.JoeG

I agree with you Joe...if the ice is safe..lets us fish.Just have a license for the right year(:
That law has only been in effect for a few years and should be changed back.
You can still fish on ponds etc,, but it should be no different on the lakes with salmon as they are off limits anyway.

JoeG
I agree with you on changing the season date. why not let us fish as long as ther is safe ice and go have the proper license. now as far as taking salmon thru the ice hole, the only thing I found in the law book is if you were to catch that salmon or any other type of fish other than a cusk on a cusk line then you can't remove the fish, you must cut your line and immediately release it. there might be something in the big book of laws since the don't give you all the laws in the digest. GOOD Question maybe somebody will give us the answer according to the LAW
good fishing
Forry

This has been fun reading the responses...the opinions... a couple of points:

1. I've jigged up salmon while jigging for lake trout on the bottom in 80+ft of water while ice fishing. On etime I was jigging on the bottom in basin @ Shep Brown's and I hooked a salmon that literally jumped out of the hole onto the ice, what a mess it made of the jigging line, yes I promtly got the fish back in the water before I untangled the line.

2. My dad and his buddies fished just below the ice for lake trout and they caught a lot of lakers.

3. About salmon being fragile,lets not forget about the stress that occurs when we play the fish for a long time on light tackle when the water is warm, from what I've the salmon swim away okay but can go into shook due to lactic acid buidlup in their system. We may feel good about releasing the salmon but it may just end on dead on the bottom of the lake. I have seen this occur on a number of occasions when I've caught salmon fly fishing in rivers during the warmer months.

4. Take a look and the fin clip & netting data both here and ME. You find very few LL salmon reach old age, very few reach (5)lbs.

5. Catch and release of LL salmon, well let's just say I see alot of fish on stringers or dead fish pictures during the open water season. IMO I don't think it matters whether the fish was caught and killed in Jan or caught and killed in June. It is still a dead fish.

Finally: The current personal @ NH F&G have done a tremendous job managing Lake Winni for LL salmon and have sucessfully brought the lake trout back.