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Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Just by chance, in case some people read Cool Waters first message and only saw it was Winni about the two lines, Take a closer look, it also mentions Squam and Sunapee. Just thought I'd point that out as most people are talking about Winni. Take Care God Bless LOL Dave

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

LOL Dave
Just by chance, in case some people read Cool Waters first message and only saw it was Winni about the two lines, Take a closer look, it also mentions Squam and Sunapee. Just thought I'd point that out as most people are talking about Winni. Take Care God Bless LOL Dave


Dave, until a name or group is attached to what Trav says, it's still only a rumor. Why Sunapee and Squam are mentioned in the same breath or context as Winni I don't know, neither have as high a hook wound rate because it's **** hard to catch allot of Salmon on those lakes and allot less pressure, why make it harder. Fish and Games wish is that more folks fished those other lakes to take some pressure from Winni. lastthing they want is to discourage folks from fishing other lakes..

One idea not mentioned is to "do nothing", that is a sure way to fix it but it would take a long time. If left as is, Winni will get so bad, nobody will want to fish it anymore and likewise "no pressure" problem, solved without any changes at all, simple.

But is that what we all want ??????

I still feel the Derbies are the main culprit, maybe some changes can be made without stopping them. Why do you think there will never be any more Derbies added ???

Big John

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

All I can say is that if this were to happen, two lines per boat, F&G is gonna lose alot of money in my opinion. It would be useless to go to winni/squam or sunapee 3 of us comfortably on "The Tubb" to only be allowed to put 2 lines in the water. If that were to be the case, we more then likely wouldn't even do the spring derby, and with just our crew (cabin rental, local tackle shops, restaurants, gas, food, etc...) that would be a loss of minimum almost 800-1000 dollars, multiply that times XXXX and thats a big chunk of change that wont go into the local economy. I agree something needs to change, but I think we need to really listen to the biologists that have all the numbers and see exactly what they recommend, Would this 2 line max be for a couple 2-3 years or for good? Not sure how this is gonna pan out, but if it comes to fruitation, guess I'll be in Maine more then I am now LOL Take Care God Bless LOL Dave

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

LOL Dave
All I can say is that if this were to happen, two lines per boat, F&G is gonna lose alot of money in my opinion. It would be useless to go to winni/squam or sunapee 3 of us comfortably on "The Tubb" to only be allowed to put 2 lines in the water. If that were to be the case, we more then likely wouldn't even do the spring derby, and with just our crew (cabin rental, local tackle shops, restaurants, gas, food, etc...) that would be a loss of minimum almost 800-1000 dollars, multiply that times XXXX and thats a big chunk of change that wont go into the local economy. I agree something needs to change, but I think we need to really listen to the biologists that have all the numbers and see exactly what they recommend, Would this 2 line max be for a couple 2-3 years or for good? Not sure how this is gonna pan out, but if it comes to fruitation, guess I'll be in Maine more then I am now LOL Take Care God Bless LOL Dave



I doubt you will see much change in the Derbies (a 900 pound political Gorilla nobody wants to wrestle with) but some change is needed.

I'm pretty sure some other changes are coming, but maybe for Winni only.

What they would like is to have people fish some of the other lakes more and take some pressure off Winni, this is not a rumor. Many times I have talked with Fish and Game and they said the fishing pressure has to be spread out more to the other Salmon Lakes, but how ???

Of course this would be the worse year to try the above as Winnisquam, Sunapee, Newfound and Squam are all practicaly dry as far as Salmon go. The small stocking size 2 years in a row is showing up in the nets now, virtualy no 2 year olds (two in fact, which equalled 2% of the net pull)at Squam. Other lakes the same or similar results, F and G say 40% to 60% of the netting normaly are be 2 year olds.

Most of the other lakes have their own negatives, boat launch and parking at Sunapee, Squam has limited deep basins can't handle allot of boat traffic, Winnisquam has no Smelt and very few Salmon of any age. I've never caught a Salmon at Newfound, but only fished it a few times, guess it's a Laker and Bow lake primarily and for sure now?

So in my un-educated opinion, some changes are needed everywhere but Winni (at a minmum) the mother lake, should be the start..

Big John

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

The common thread I read in the above posts is that all the folks on this board have a lot of great ideas and are already doing their best to be good stewards of our resource.
I think for all the reasons mentioned about two lines, that is not a good idea. As well as restricting to four lines would not have the impact that is desired as most any of you fishing folks fishing four lines can catch quite a few fish.
I agree with Mr. Sampson that "changes" in the derbies would have the biggest impact.
The Sping Derby is for Salmon only. We have a ton of Lake trout in our lake.....Why not target them for a period of time and leave the salmon alone. As stated in previous post, during this derby you get alot of folks that do not normally fish, I am sure they are not as "informed" on releasing techniques, rubber nets and etc. How many thousand salmon do you think are caught during this event? If there are 2500 folks fishing and the average is two fish per person, how may hook wounded fish are put back in the lake on those three days.
The Ice Derby changed to targeting tagged rainbows several years ago. When I first fished this derby this was not the case and the desired fish was Lake trout.When they targeted rainbows I know that is when if I target rainbows I catch salmon as well. The rest of the year when I chase white perch..I rarely hook a salmon. In other words come up with a diiferent fish for the prizes. Maybe a combo of fish to keep lines deeper.
In line with some other thoughts as well, instead of a Salmon Stamp , have a Winni Stamp. Maybe that would put more pressure on the other lakes and be viewed as more fair to folks that primarily fish the other salmon lakes.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years to all.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Hook wounding is 25 % - 33 % on Winni,Squam,Sunapee, NewFound and other salmon lakes. It's a huge problem.

I would be open to :

1. 1 rod per licensed fisherman

2. barbless hooks & maybe single also

3. rubber nets a must.

4. about a $10 dollar increase in fishing licenses or salmon stamp requirement. All $$$ goes to F&G.

5. not sure how to handle the derbies, i don't fish them.

6. a meeting with F&G biologists this winter for discussion ??

regards
Jim Hennessy

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Hi,
Let me start of by saying that I love to fish for salmon but I take exception when there are people who feel that salmon are the be all and end all. There are other gamefish out there and, in my opinion, they are severely neglected in this state. What F&G should really be taking a look at is spending more of there money on fish that can actually reproduce once they're stocked. Maybe all the money they throw away by stocking 8-10" trout in streams that are nearly dried up by July, needs to be reexamined. Is this not an incredible waste of money? Could the money wasted here be used towards improving the salmon fishery? Perhaps there are other species that could be stocked in the trout/salmon lakes(or at least some of them)that would fare better. Maybe Browns, Waleyes, Pike, Musky? I know this statement will be lambasted here, but is it worth looking into. I know they say the smelt population is great in Winni, but maybe a bait source such as alewife would be better for the fishery? I'm not an expert and I don't know the answers to these questions, but I feel they deserved to be asked. Go to the Finger Lakes in NY and the primary forage is alewife. These lakes grow much larger fish than we have here in NH;it's not even close. Both coldwater(trout/salmon) and warmwater(walleye,pike, bass)fish coexist, grow and thrive here. Why is this so? Could our F&G department learn something from NY F&G? Shouldn't they at least look into it? All I know is that 5-6 years ago you could head to Winni and have a good shot at a 4lb salmon. Those days are now few and far between. When I troll I'm specifically looking for larger fish, and not numbers. I would much rather catch a trout/salmon over 5 lbs., then 20 in a day under 2 lbs. If I want numbers, then I can bass fish. I started of as a "bass man", graduated to trolling, and now I'm somewhere in between. We need to keep an open mind that there are other fish species which could fare better in our larger lakes. The Atlantic Salmon on the Great Lakes is almost an afterthought. I asked numerous charter captains why this is so and all said the same thing; they're not nearly as hardy as other gamefish and just don't cut it. In other words, it's not cost efficient to stock them as much as other species. Maybe with all the pressure that salmon currently experience, they're just not ever going to return to the "glory days". I think all of your opinions are valued and deserve to be heard. I know this post may not be the most popular on this site, but one that should be included in the discussion, nonetheless. Take care and happy holidays to all!

Chris

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Wow, look at all the posts. I read thru many but not all. I only have a few comments that may not be worth 2 cents. I think most of us have had days where two rods are hard to keep in the water because the fishing was so good. Other days you can put out everything possible and not produce much fish. I would not like to see a two rod limit but if its in the best interest of the lake why not? One of MY beliefs for the downturn of Winni Salmon is the Ice fishing for Rainbows. Hey I ice fish for them too, but run into the occational Salmon. With the winter derby and the length of the last several years ice fishing seasons (global warming ya right), it's no wonder we have had a major impact on the Salmon. I do think that including the rainbows to the Salmon season regulations (no rainbows thru the ice) ON WINNI would help the Salmon population to recover quicker. Putting tags on the Lake trout for the winter derby is no big deal. This would also help control the Lake trout population before it gets out of hand. Roland and Lena

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

I have read over all of the posts. I agree that it is important that at least we are talking about solutions and all giving our opinions and maybe, just maybe one or a a combination of a few opinions will greatly impact the fishery.

With that said, I agree with alot of what I have read and disagree with a few things.

First, a limit of 6 rods per boat, in my opinion, is really no limit at all. I really think that if you looked at all of the fishing boats on a lake you would find a very small percentage fishing more than 6 lines. I have a larger than average size boat and 5 lines is as many as I can run with out tangles(I dont stack the lines on the riggers). So in my opinion a 6 rod limit would have a VERY small, if any, impact on the fishery.

Second, I know this won't be popular with some people but I don't think we should change the rules or cater to the guides. Yes, they are trying to make a living but they chose to make a living guiding sportsmen and must take the bad with the good. In my opinion they have a HUGE impact on the fishery. If the solution is a 1 pole per license or 4 poles per boat limit that is what it is for every boat, not just the private sportsmen. One of the above posts above talks about limiting out too quick. Compare that to the out of state moose hunter who spends $2500 to hire a moose guide and kills his moose 10 minutes into opening day. Is there a difference? I personally think not. That moose hunter moves on to bird hunting, rabbit hunting or fishing. Could salmon guides do the same and move on and target another species such as bass?

In closing, I like the barbless hook idea as well as the stamp, sticker or whatever will work to provide revenue to F and G if in fact increased revenue will help.

You all have asked for opinions, this is mine. Lets keep this debate going, it is in all of our best interest.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

I really like Woodnwaters idea, about changing the targeted species during the winter derby from rainbows to lakers, Then not only would we have decent size salmon to catch, we would also have good sized rainbows as well, not sure about anyone else, but some of the rainbows I've caught on winni (the bigger ones) fight just as well as the salmon. Take Care God Bless LOL Dave

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

"whatever will work to provide revenue to F and G if in fact increased revenue will help."

thats a really important aspect, looking at some of the new game warden boats over in maine this year you just have to shake your head.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Wow...what a great response on this thread. So much that I couldn't absorb and respond to all the great feed back but there are a few that I have opinions on:
1.) Why not also charge bass fishermen? Simple...In NH, salmon is a managed fishery. That is a lot of resources spent on breeding and releasing and constant studies. Bass is entirely unmanaged...why should bass fisherman foot the bill for managing salmonid fisheries more so than they already do with their fishing licenses? I fish both species so this is just my observation...
2.) Rather than eliminating the Spring Derby, how about shortening it to one or two days and swapping prizes so the big prizes go lakers and the laker prizes go to salmon. Include with that a higher minimum length for weigh in to be 23 or 24 inches.
3.) 4 lines per boat is not a bad number...it's all I like to put out but only effects those will really nice boats spreading on planerboards with huge spreads. While it would limit SOME of the harvest and level the playing field for the derby, it would cripple the guides and thus seem to unfairly target a very small portion of fishermen.

Barbless hooks, rubber nets, 4 line limit, slot limits, changing derby length and prizes could all effect the fishery BUT everything I have read is that the fishery health is a direct mirror of the health of the smelt population. I think it just might be that any legislation should target this species NOT salmon.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

MikeF-NH
Wow...what a great response on this thread. So much that I couldn't absorb and respond to all the great feed back but there are a few that I have opinions on:
1.) Why not also charge bass fishermen? Simple...In NH, salmon is a managed fishery. That is a lot of resources spent on breeding and releasing and constant studies. Bass is entirely unmanaged...why should bass fisherman foot the bill for managing salmonid fisheries more so than they already do with their fishing licenses? I fish both species so this is just my observation...
2.) Rather than eliminating the Spring Derby, how about shortening it to one or two days and swapping prizes so the big prizes go lakers and the laker prizes go to salmon. Include with that a higher minimum length for weigh in to be 23 or 24 inches.
3.) 4 lines per boat is not a bad number...it's all I like to put out but only effects those will really nice boats spreading on planerboards with huge spreads. While it would limit SOME of the harvest and level the playing field for the derby, it would cripple the guides and thus seem to unfairly target a very small portion of fishermen.

Barbless hooks, rubber nets, 4 line limit, slot limits, changing derby length and prizes could all effect the fishery BUT everything I have read is that the fishery health is a direct mirror of the health of the smelt population. I think it just might be that any legislation should target this species NOT salmon.


The Smelt count was excellent on all the Lakes this summer except Winnisquam, Winni was much better than expected, best in years.. Hook wounding is the problem, fish are being hooked again and again. Salmon are not that hardy compared to Bsss and most other fish, when they get hook wounded it knocks the hell out of them and takes allot to recover, weakens them and stunts growth, etc. Just clipping the fins at the hatchery takes weeks to recover from. For a super fighting fish, they are very fragile.

I agree 100% on Bass fisherman being exempt from ant Salmon fee.

Big John

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

BLA BLA .................
Cause , effect then resolution. Don't make the job easy, make them step up !! The rules are in place don't let them (F&G and the softies) take away.... step up ! We need back bone......Put in kick ass fish to catch and charge me plenty for it !! If they take away you never ever get it back !! The salmon population is......... up to the license seller..... Yup I try to be the games men but bottom line its buisness. If you sell more fish than you make..! you make more !!! BE REALISTIC this is nothing more than put and take fishing.... has been since the 60's... get the program. I have been to Quebec, Newbrunswick and NY in the heart of salomon fishing..... BOTTOM LINE.... if they don't put them(and make sure they get big enough ) you don't catch them. Merry New year !! Any thing your kidding your self.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

Just in case I studdered... I'm Tired of the bleeding heart hook wounding saga 2009. I want to run 6 to ten rods with trebble hooks BARBED and catch all that will bite. I bring extra kids just to have the rods in the water. I have dragged for hours and stuck nothing for as many hours as I have had success. BULL Ticky !!! get the fishery up to the preasure..... don't try to bring the preasure to the fishery and then sell me a license. Just like hunting, I did not buy and carry a 30/06 to catch and release the deer.

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

I didn't know they sold barbless 30.06 deer rounds(lol)merry christmas.polebreaker

Re: You want to read this one!!!!

I agree 1 million percent with fishn24/7. Aren't fish stocked in waters to get hooked? F&G needs to do a better job stocking and stop wasting the majority of our money stocking trout in streams and ponds that after June can't sustain these fish. If they're worried about money, then what I mentioned above could definitely bring in tons of money, all without a license increase. While I'm on this topic, they should take some of this wasted money and start stocking warmwater fish that could actually reproduce and grow to large sizes in our waters. Pike, Musky, and Walleye come to mind. Don't just put them in one lake and hope they take after they've been hammered by the fishermen. This gives them no chance at taking and gives F&G an excuse that they tried and were not successful. F&G is totally missing the boat on this one. What they don't do for the warmwater fishery in this state is neglectful and very close minded. Their philosophy seems to be stock fish that don't have a chance to grow large and reproduce in our NH waters vs. fully committing to one's that could. I'm very confused by this; this makes no sense!!!! We can have it both ways, they just need to spend their money more wisely. I'd pay $200 for a license if we had a fishery that was well diversified and not so one sided, the Finger Lakes keep popping into my mind of what I envision we could have in this state. The whole thing makes me sick just thinking about what could be. One last point, why not make Winni a trophy brown trout lake? With all the bait and crayfish in the lake, I think they would stand the best chance of reaching trophy sizes (over 7 lbs). They're also a lot harder to catch and more hardy. Would this ever be considered? I already know the answer. The young browns look too much like salmon to clueless people who might then keep them while ice fishing.(I've been told this by F&G directly). What would you rather catch 2 lb salmon or 6-8 lb browns? I know my preference. Does anybody else out there agree or am I a wacko in the way I think? I'm not saying terminate the salmon fishery, but to not have one of our larger lakes dedicated to a trophy brown fishery is a downright shame. Sorry to rant and rave but every time I come back from NY I find myself green with envy. I hope you and yours have a wonderful holiday and new year!

Chris

Merry Christmas to all

Not sure If I posted this or parts of it before senior moment.

The small Salmon that we all complaning about which are part of the problem should be thing of the past.

As most of you know Salmon are stocked by the pound, ideal is 8 or 9 to a pound, the past two years they have been more like 20+ to a pound, bite size.

The problem had something to do with water temperture at the hatchery. The Salmon grow better with slightly warmer water, however some state agency had a problem with water temperature at the hatchery discharge being too warm. Not sure which agency it is, but they are in the same building as Fish and Game I'm told. At any rate F and G found a way to have the water temperature more ideal for raising Salmon and have it at the proper discharge temp. I think they are using a pool or pools furthest away from the discharge.

So we should ave more normal stock size this year and future years if all goes well.

Actualy I have asked the question to F & G before why they don't raise the Salmon bigger before stocking, they said that it is cost prohibitive and that the Salmon actualy do better in the lakes eating a more natural protien and grow faster than they would at the hatchery.

The reason I seem to be more informed than some of you is I e mail Fish and Game on a regular basis and "ASK QUESTIONS". Everything they do is a matter public record and they welcome and will answer any questions any of you have.

Lots of good ideas in this thread, F and G are reading them and I'm sure a few changes are being planned, what exactly is anyones guess.

The open meetings are only held every odd year,. so if we don't like what we have this coming year and next, go to the next meeting in 2011 and be heard.

Maybe they will have a special open meeting to address this problem now that we showed most of us do care.

Big John

Re: Merry Christmas to all

John I believe they may be getting colder water now because I thought they were suppose to extend the intake pipe out deeper into Merrymeeting Lake.
Cal

Re: Merry Christmas to all

White Cap
John I believe they may be getting colder water now because I thought they were suppose to extend the intake pipe out deeper into Merrymeeting Lake.
Cal


Well, that's not good news, warmer water is the key as I'm told ?

Big John

Re: Merry Christmas to all

Season's Greetings Big John.

I am going to buy myself a Xmas gift soon, another Big Jon rigger with auto-stop feature.

F & G in N.H. is very professional and email/call me back.. I like you ask alot of questions...