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Youth Hockey
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Re: For the Coaches

Thoughtful post.

I was wondering your thoughts on tracking assist? I feel it is a motivational way to get the kids to pass.

Goals mean nothing. Every team my son has played on the assist leaders were the top players.

Re: For the Coaches

tracking stats at the youth level distracts from the idea of developing, getting better at: skating, stick work, awareness, etc.

above youth makes sense, using only one is not. as others have said there are weaknesses in each one, collectively they can form an understanding. but even then --- think Kevin Stevens: so-so career, suddenly great numbers, traded then not. what was missing was who was on this line during those 'great years'.

Re: For the Coaches

If a team tracks stats, and some do, it shouldn't be for parental consumption. It should strictly be a coach's tool to evaluate players and to evaluate the team as a whole. I'd love for my coach to have relevant info for my kid, when they sit down for my bender's end-of-season evaluation.

As for +/- . It helps when figuring-out a team's lines, and over the course of a season it'll clearly show you who's an outlier (both success and failure). It absolutely paints an accurate picture of which players dog it on the ice, and which players routinely forecheck, backcheck, and hustle. It's not even up for discussion.

Re: For the Coaches

It most certainly is "up for discussion". Most coaches at the youth level don't have the time to deeply dive into the stats to understand the nuances of the numbers. They work, they are parents, they have practice plans to get together, annoying parents to deal with, etc. As kids get older and better understand positioning the majority of goals scored are a result of either the off wing or center (depending on defensive philosophy) not covering their man. Unless the coaches are going to dive into who was on the ice and how a goal was scored (breakaway, rebound, high slot) and look for real trends it is a useless stat to track. In fact, I can make an argument that unless you really dive into it, along with game film, making decisions on it is worse than using no data at all.

Re: For the Coaches

Anon
If a team tracks stats, and some do, it shouldn't be for parental consumption. It should strictly be a coach's tool to evaluate players and to evaluate the team as a whole. I'd love for my coach to have relevant info for my kid, when they sit down for my bender's end-of-season evaluation.

As for +/- . It helps when figuring-out a team's lines, and over the course of a season it'll clearly show you who's an outlier (both success and failure). It absolutely paints an accurate picture of which players dog it on the ice, and which players routinely forecheck, backcheck, and hustle. It's not even up for discussion.
Definitely useful in some situations. I happened to track it one year for my son because the team was getting destroyed game after game(-100 GD on the season for the team) but he was a +32 for the season. He was sick of losing all the time but I basically said you're doing the best you can, don't worry about it. You can't control what happens when you're not on the ice. It was good to use stats to contrast what the standings showed. If you're a D man and you're out there every other shift it's kind of useful just as a barometer to measure effectiveness against other D men in particular.

Re: For the Coaches

Not sure it matter. If coaches are using it for player evaluation, that's stupid since it's more of a team stat. If they're using it to motivate kids working harder together on lines, I guess that's one way to go about it.

Re: For the Coaches

anon
Not sure it matter. If coaches are using it for player evaluation, that's stupid since it's more of a team stat. If they're using it to motivate kids working harder together on lines, I guess that's one way to go about it.
How is +/- a "team stat?"

Re: For the Coaches

Not a team stat but also not an individual stat. It's reliant on all five kids on the ice.

Re: For the Coaches

anon
Not a team stat but also not an individual stat. It's reliant on all five kids on the ice.
OK, but the same five players aren't always on the ice together.

It's an indicator of which individuals deliver a more consistently positive result during their time on the ice.

Nobody EVER talks about +/- in "team stat" terms.

Re: For the Coaches

Keeping Sanity
I was at a skills practice last night for my bender who's an 09. I tend to keep to myself for the usual reasons (keep my sanity). He's an above average player, we are very happy where he's playing, and have already been invited back next season. A discussion between three or four guys took place 15-20 feet away about +/- rating for the season. At what age are coaches really looking at this? Are any keeping track?

Thanks
Sanity
Didn't you already answer your question? You said you were watching the Skills and the people standing on the outside of the glass mentioned it. That tells you all you need to know about who truly cares about crappy stats like that for first year squirt. Parents who have no idea about what it is really all about and live through their kids, use numbers to justify who is doing what to make themselves feel better. Most coaches care about your player improving a little bit each time the step onto the ice. If your kid is getting better and playing in a division that they are playing competitive games then that is all that matters and the "stats" will handle themselves.

Re: For the Coaches

BS. with a 13 kid roster you need stats to evaluate a Squirt? It's like saying what's my kids batting average at T-Ball

Re: For the Coaches

+ / - exposes defensemen who can't or fail to want to play defense. For a forward it really depends on who they're paired with on the ice. And yes, for D at Peewee Minor and beyond it is a useful stat. Also can help with D pairings or what pairs to put with which forwards. Sadly the '4th Forward' approach many teams are now running, the teams are giving up on responsible defense and those people are the "plus minus doesn't matter" crowd.

Re: For the Coaches

anon
+ / - exposes defensemen who can't or fail to want to play defense. For a forward it really depends on who they're paired with on the ice. And yes, for D at Peewee Minor and beyond it is a useful stat. Also can help with D pairings or what pairs to put with which forwards. Sadly the '4th Forward' approach many teams are now running, the teams are giving up on responsible defense and those people are the "plus minus doesn't matter" crowd.
It also exposes forwards that don't backcheck or contribute on both ends.

A few years ago Ovi scored 50 goals and was -35. Do you know how hard that is to do?

Re: For the Coaches

Totally agree. Kind of like Torey Krug being -8 on a 25-15-4 club. "But did you she his pass in the Calgary game?"

Re: For the Coaches

Is this thread really happening? We’re talking about 9 year olds +/-? You people have lost your frigging minds. Just watch the games and STFU you morons!

Re: For the Coaches

Anon
Is this thread really happening? We’re talking about 9 year olds +/-? You people have lost your frigging minds. Just watch the games and STFU you morons!
Couldn't have said it better myself...

Re: For the Coaches

Anon
Anon
Is this thread really happening? We’re talking about 9 year olds +/-? You people have lost your frigging minds. Just watch the games and STFU you morons!
Couldn't have said it better myself...
Awwww, sorry if we weren't immediately indignant in our responses to an obvious fishing expedition. How many harumphs would you like? Is three enough?

Harumph! Harumph! Harumph!

There, are you happy now?

Re: For the Coaches

+/- ratings do not expose anything, let alone a defensemen's desire to play D. It is so heavily influenced by events players have no control over as to be essentially meaningless as a quality measurement and why teams don't really care about it at advanced levels of play. 2016/17 Tory Krug is a -10 but when you look at his advanced metrics you realize that he had one of his strongest seasons.

If you don't know what I mean, let me give you an example. One of the most common mistakes in youth hockey is not covering the 3rd man high. Now depending on your team, that might the be responsibility of the off wing or the center. When that player puts the biscuit in the net, that isn't on the D.



Re: For the Coaches

"...but when you look at his advanced metrics..." Yeah, advanced like he's slow, undersized, no reach, can't cover in front of the net and basically gets pushed around like a little kid on D and has a little pop-gun slap shot but has a spot on the PP so his goals / assist numbers are good.

Real advanced

Re: For the Coaches

Stat is worthless at the Youth Level. With live barn, a good coach would take it one step further to watch game video and assign accountability for each goal. That would take the randomness out of the evaluation.

Re: For the Coaches

I keep track of my 2011’s +/-, penalties, pts, hits, and blocked shots. How else will I know whether to give him dinner the night after a game or make him do sprints, shoot 1000 pucks, and lift weights?

Re: For the Coaches

Sometime in Pee Wee, I started complementing my son with # of puck possession entry to offensive zone, SOG (for rebound), physical contact or stick action to force a turnover. Kids cannot deek as much as they used to because D becomes better due to longer hand and stick, and players' skating-skill in the league pool becomes more normalized. Until Squirt, my son could breakout from D zone and went straight to the goal for score especially in his town team.

Re: For the Coaches

Seriously? Nobody cares. What is that supposed to even mean or be relevant in this conversation. It only proves thst you are a crazy person.

Re: For the Coaches

Anon
I keep track of my 2011’s +/-, penalties, pts, hits, and blocked shots. How else will I know whether to give him dinner the night after a game or make him do sprints, shoot 1000 pucks, and lift weights?
Finally some one that hasn’t let this pathetic generation soften him or his kid. Christ our grand parents lied to go to war and you people are afraid of hurting your delicate little flowers by holding them accountable for there actions on the ice. Keep up the good fight brother

Re: For the Coaches

anon
Keeping Sanity
I was at a skills practice last night for my bender who's an 09. I tend to keep to myself for the usual reasons (keep my sanity). He's an above average player, we are very happy where he's playing, and have already been invited back next season. A discussion between three or four guys took place 15-20 feet away about +/- rating for the season. At what age are coaches really looking at this? Are any keeping track?

Thanks
Sanity
Didn't you already answer your question? You said you were watching the Skills and the people standing on the outside of the glass mentioned it. That tells you all you need to know about who truly cares about crappy stats like that for first year squirt. Parents who have no idea about what it is really all about and live through their kids, use numbers to justify who is doing what to make themselves feel better. Most coaches care about your player improving a little bit each time the step onto the ice. If your kid is getting better and playing in a division that they are playing competitive games then that is all that matters and the "stats" will handle themselves.
Wrong. Unfortunately most coaches only care about their own kids stats. Most fade away by Bantams so you do have something to look forward too.

Re: For the Coaches

Sorry your Corsi got cut.

Re: For the Coaches

Hey guys, I'm not sure if any of you know this but it's STFU Friday. So what do you do?

Re: For the Coaches

Sure thing daddy coach. I’ll shut up once you start acting like you care about developing players other than your own.

Re: For the Coaches



"If you're a D man and you're out there every other shift it's kind of useful just as a barometer to measure effectiveness against other D men in particular."

100% accurate and it seems the lazy on D parents whose kids are forwards are the ones who continuously try to state " +/- is a useless stat " For defensemen its like goals and assists for forwards; pretty much how you gauge how you're doing.